This is not a war between Jews and Arabs. In Egypt where I was born, Jews lived in peace, security and prosperity for centuries before the disruption caused by cruelty and abuse against non-Jewish Palestinians disrupted the harmony. I hope some kind of boycott works, so that Israel will finally allow the Palestinians their legitimate righs under internaional law, and so that no one else gets hurt.

I don't think it really matters into which Zionist party Israelis are driven. The vast majority of them already vote for parties which have no intention whatsoever of making peace: In practical terms, (ie what actually happens to Palestinians) there is very little difference between Livny/Barak and Netanyahu/Lieberman, who weren't in power when Lebanon was attacked or Gaza was razed.

It's nearly twenty years since apartheid fell in South Africa now. Boycotts and embargoes played a massive part in that process. All of them were carried out in the face of the argument that they would drive "moderate" whites into the arms of the Nationalists. And they did. But it didn't make a blind bit of difference.

Avnery had a parallel then in the wonderful Helen Suzman. Like him she was patriotic, liberal and fundamentally decent. Her Progressive Party attempted to persuade the South African whites of the need to reform just as Gush Shalom does now. Without the use of force (including boycotts) she (or those that followed her) would still be trying to persuade them.

I don't dispute the differences Momo. But the similarity is that Israel is moving into a phase where it is already under pressure. You mentioned that it is now accepting non-Jewish immigrants without considering the significance of that. The fact is that Israel can no longer attract enough Jewish immigration because life in Israel is being made increasingly uncomfortable. This has been going on for some time time. Do you not remember the comedy provided by Ariel Sharon attempting to argue that Peruvian and Bolivian Indians might have Jewish links?

And remember that even a fair proportion of Jewish immigrants are not ideological Zionists. They have gone there to enjoy an incredible standard of living subsidised by the American taxpayer and the rightful owners of the stolen land. Discomfort and inconvenience will not push these people into the arms of the "extremists" (as if they weren't there already), it will push them back to their own countries or force them to accommodate.

But that wasn't my point. What I am saying is that the people we would be in danger of alienating (if indeed that would happen - many, like Neve Gordon, would support boycotts) are insignificant and unimportant even if they are decent and admirable people.

Ethan is an interesting case study Momo. He is an external supporter. They tend to be far more zealous and uncompromising. We had an interesting parallel here when Ulster Unionists started talking with the IRA. Their Scottish supporters were in a state of shock. Families fell out with each other, collections were made, arms were purchased and people were beaten and chased out of their homes. There are still some Unionists who would not dare to set foot in Scotland but are safe in the six counties where reconciliation is now unstoppable.

I don't agree that the concept of Israel is as deeply ingrained as you suggest. I was fascinated when I went to Auchswitz, to learn that the possessions sorting centre (where survival was most likely) earned the name Canada - which is the place most European Jews regarded as the promised land, NOT Israel. Even after the war, the most sought after emigration destinations were Canada, the US and Australia. Israel was accepted as a last resort.

Just as with South Africa, you've got three groups: those (both Jew and non-Jew) that are there for mercenary reasons only; those, like Avnery who are genuinely patriotic and willing to compromise; and the zealots.

The first group are the biggest by far. The point about them is that they will do whatever they perceive to be in their own interests - which is why they currently elect right wing extremists like Barak, Livny, Netanyahu and Lieberman. If they perceive this to be counter-productive as a result of boycotts, sanctions etc they will either change or go. They will not circle the wagons and fight because that is not the kind of commitment they have. The problem at the moment is not that they cannot trust the Palestinians. It is that they perceive themselves to be strong enough and well supported enough not to need to.

The zealots may stand and fight but there are not enough of them to make a difference. What's more they'll rely on God being on their side and my hunch is that he won't turn up.

I'm also interested to know why you're so confident that the US will continue to give the current level of support. Americans are about to become both a lot poorer and a lot more highly taxed as the consequences of successive governments' economic mismanagement take effect. Even if the subsidy to Israel was insignificant (it isn't) there would be massive resentment about it continuing. What's more, as US military might wanes and it's economic clout all but disappears, it is going to need the friendship of Middle Eastern oil states a lot more than it needs Israel as a strategic ally.

I think we're seeing the same things but giving them differing significances Momo.

The insight into the way Zionists brainwash their children was scary. But that happens on the other side too. Hamas are being forced, kicking and screaming, to include the holocaust in history curricula. I'd again refer you to the Irish or South Afican experiences on that one though (sorry if I'm sounding like a stuck gramophone record)

And I certainly agree with you that most Arab governments would dump the Palestinians tomorrow if they could. But they can't. Even despots require some level of concensus and for the so called "street" that one would be one treachery too far.

Time will tell which of us is right.

You're right Candace. Mike must be away. I've had a bit of a sweep through. Can you see anything I've missed?

Sorry folks. I've had a lot of travel the last few weeks and you've had to suffer for my absence...well, at least suffering me not taking out my share of the trash.

Thanks for sweeping out the forums Charlie and thanks for your assistance Candace!

oh, you guys are wonderful. thank you for the kindness. I appreciate it.